Ever since my beloved co-blogger, Tearfree, posted about the Potential Park Perv, I have been thinking about the nature of workplace sexual harassment. Mostly how if it's a playful hot guy with abs saying suggestive things at the office, most women will flirt right back or instant message their closest office friend to breathlessly report that the hot guy just complimented her clavicle. Remember Daniel Cleaver in "Bridget Jones Diary?" What woman among us didn't "schwing" at that scene when the elevator doors opened and there was his bad ass, the man who devilishly messaged Bridget a few scenes later: "Your tits look great in that top." Had Daniel Cleaver looked and behaved like Mr. Titspervert, or a similarly greasy-haired guy with Coke-bottle glasses and his pants pulled up to his nipples at any workplace? Immediate sexual harassment complaint.
There is a dear man at my office, a big, husky bear of a guy, who has always made the most politically incorrect jokes and offered neck rubs routinely to the women in the office. I have known him since we were both in our 20s, when such office humour was commonplace. He is a work friend -- we usually try to go out for lunch once a month or so and I gratefully accept the neck rubs since I suffer from chronic concrete-neck. When I was a real mess earlier this year, he found me sobbing a few times in stairwells or outside the office in the back alley, and he gave me big, comforting hugs as I literally sobbed on his shoulder. He was kind, gentle and smart, and sweetly assured me I was going to be OK eventually.
The younger women in the office, however, think he's a perv due to the ribald jokes and the offers of neck rubs.
This hurts me. Because I know what a kind heart he has. He means absolutely no harm and has never once, in all the years I've known him, hit on me. Yes, he has told me I have great legs, commented on my outfits and declared I have perfect feet in the summer when he can see my toes. I guess I am complicit, because I am a sucker for a compliment and always thanked him for his comments instead of saying: "It is highly inappropriate for you to comment on my pedicure and I am going to complain to Human Resources immediately."
I guess it is a whole different world now, when people are sometimes unable to see the grey areas and only see the black and white. I fear for my friend and what might happen to him, and I fully intend to go to bat for him if he finds himself in any serious trouble. But I find it all very sad, and I know he very likely wouldn't be in this position if he looked like Enrique Iglesias.
27 comments:
My favorite buddy at my office is the same way - and his jokes are a hoot. Many think we're carrying on a torrid affair since we're both big flirts and enjoy each other's company immensely. But I know what a good, solid Catholic (married) man he is, so let 'em talk.
Just because you appreciate comments that assuage your self esteem doesn't mean that everyone should. Unwelcome advances and comments are unwelcome. And who cares if they're based on someone's weight or unattractiveness? Is it fair that more attractive men's advances will likely be more welcome rather than unwelcome? Life's not fair. That doesn't give fat unattractive men license to invade other people's space and make them feel uncomfortable because women should accept his inappropriateness out of pity.
Your arguments are disturbing.
I think I agree with j. miklos. You're fond of this guy and obviously very comfortable with his manner toward you, but he makes other women uncomfortable with his suggestions. If the women have told him they are uncomfortable and he doesn't stop, then it is harassment. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity for this sort of thing and not everyone want this guy as their big old huggy bear and they have a right to have him not assume otherwise.
My point is really that if this guy was hot, the women would not be complaining.
I agree he can't carry on with his 1980s behaviour and have told him so, but I still think sometimes people need to take a step back and realize there are shades of grey -- a suggestive comment does not make someone a potential rapist.
Oh, and by the way, any time a woman has told him to piss off, he has been totally mortified and has, in fact, pissed off. So he is not harassing anyone knowing full well they are uncomfortable.
Just based on these comments, I'm deeply tempted to draw this out further into the problem of the male in post-feminist culture.
First, I've seen a man's life destroyed by a sexual harassment lawsuit and it was horrible. Don't get me wrong with what I am about to say. Women must be not be subjected to unwanted advances. The problems really come about when ... it is wanted. There are plenty (still!) of women out there just looking for their rich husband. In the case of the lawsuit, btw, it was pretty obviously a lie so that the woman in question could get his job. Even the judge in the case thought that. Rich husbands – a 32 y/o woman once said to me “I need to find someone the right age … 65 years old.” Hypocrisy? Yes.
We are now living in the huge cavern of a double standard. Women want respect, equality, and independence (all of which I respect, btw.) But, they also want a "real man." Well, men today are pretty messed up, if you haven't noticed, and because they are expected to be models of masculinity: tough, strong, the breadwinners, and all that other bullshit that women think men should be. The problems or issues that come up when the gulf between the male’s image contrasted with the new-woman is considered (by both men and women) is generally ignored and thought to be a problem of "Manliness."
Finally, directed to the main subject of the blog, I find that I am often more shocked by the level of filth women I work with are actually interested in (casual sex, strip clubs, drugs, toys, etc.) Frankly, the rhetoric and the reality just don’t match up. I hope your friend keeps on telling his jokes. It is clearly because he isn’t Hugh Grant. Clearly these women are either hypocrites or prudes … mostly likely waffling between both just to get their own way.
I have no sympathy for liars, especially ones who lie to themselves.
I am with you, Landrau. The women who think this guy is a perv are the women who flirt with the hot guys in the office who say/do things that are far more suggestive and innuendo-ridden.
You can't have it both ways, ladies, is what I want to say.
It's OK for the hot guy at the office to comment on how great your ass looks in those new jeans but the fat guy says "you look pretty today" and he's the asshole who you're pondering complaining about?
Both guys, regardless of their physical appearance, should be told to back off -- not just the less attractive one.
I feel your pain, Landrau. I don't envy men these days and the conflicting messages they get. I am raising a boy and these are challenges I ponder every day.
Ooops! I mean LANDRU!!
i was at a women's committee meeting recently, the first one i've ever attended, and i was appalled to discover that anytime a man's name came up in the meeting, the other committee members immediately engaged in man bashing. this is blatant hypocrisy and essentially treating men the same way women used to (and perhaps still are) be treated. in my opinion, this doesn't equate with feminism, but rather more with sexism. to link this to your post, the women at your office are also being blatant hypocrites.
Agreed people need to chill out and agreed there is a lot of man bashing going on - -just look at how many times men are portrayed as useless dolts in ads, tv, movies and agreed women can be very abusive of the regulations in place designed to protect them and sure women will delight in the hot guy chatting them up and not in the fat guy doing the same thing. I don't think that makes them hypocrites though. Flirting is part of the mating ritual and women feel comfortable exchanging dirty talk with a guy they see as a potential bedmate, but not in a guy they are not attracted to. Men would feel the same way -- they're not going to flirt with really unattractive women and would get uncomfortable if such women were pursue them. Maybe it's not fair that the homely can't join in the office fun without being called up on harrassment charges, but people still have the right not to be hit on by people they don't feel comfortable interacting with on that level.
Actually, I don't think women have the right not to get hit on.
I think they have the right not to get hit on after they've told someone to knock it off or made it clear the attentions are unwelcome.
And I think girls should be brought up to be able to say NO not to run to HR at the first unwelcome attention,
HR should be where you go once you've failed to solve the problem on your own.
Urban Pedestrian ... you defined hypocricy by saying:
"Maybe it's not fair that the homely can't join in the office fun without being called up on harrassment charges, but people still have the right not to be hit on by people they don't feel comfortable interacting with on that level."
I'm sorry, but that's descrimination if you want to start with the lawsuits.
I am a publicist in the male-dominated movie business. Risque jokes, ribald humour and out and out flirting are part of the business. I laugh, play along, and give it back ala Kate Hepburn. I don't feel harrassed but know that if I were uptight about this behaviour I wouldn't have lasted these many yrs. Don't think I would allow anyone to rub my neck at work tho. No matter how cute he was.
landru - huh? So you're saying that if some ugly pig of a guy keeps putting his hands on me and making suggestive remarks after I tell him to stop many times I can't charge him with harassment because I let the cute guy in the next cubicle flirt with me?
Enrique with or without the mole?
Dale: Without the mole.
Cinematic: My neck is such a mess that if a homeless person with oozing sores offered to rub it in exchange for a toonie I'd do it. So a guy who I've known most of my adult life who has never once hit on me -- sure! Yes, my neck is killing me -- get that spot right there!
He even rubs it sometimes and says: You have a serious problem there. You better get to a masseuse pronto!
UP: I don't think anyone, especially not me, is saying that a woman doesn't have every right to complain if she is being sexually harassed. Of course she does, and should, if someone is constantly making comments or forcing other unwanted attention on her if she's made it very clear even once that he should back off.
My only point is that women can in fact be hypocrites on this front, like Landru suggests. You can't allow the hot guy to say things twice as sexual as the nerdy guy, then complain to the authorities about the nerdy guy who says "you look gorgeous today" -- especially if the nerdy guy sees and hears how you interact with other men.
There has to be some personal responsibility taken as well.
Jacy you said it exactly.
But Jacy and Landru, have you actually seen that happen?
Yes. The woman in my office most creeped out by my friend is the woman who flirts in a very sexual manner with a hot guy who flirts right back.
My friend is the mail guy. He sees the interaction. He thought it was all in fun and he could join in.
Now she's making noises about complaining about him.
I want to pull her aside and say: "Listen, young lady. You don't want the attention, then don't present yourself as someone who likes and thrives on that attention. Clue in."
She is 24. And one of those chicks who claims proudly not to be a feminist.
That's a whole other rant coming soon to an RTK near you.
There are no clear lines between perviness and a bit of good fun. Even when you think you understand the rules, it can get tricky. I always thought myself pretty cool with a bit of edgy humour and wink-wink stuff from male friends, and then I had the arse pinch at a party - my party! - from one of friend men who, admittedly, had a few drinks. Next came the arse-slap. I felt humiliated and belittled. I couldn't think of a way to stop him because it was all - you know wink wink nudge nudge.
I don't know now. I would hate for my daughter to feel that way.
I do agree that women shouldn't go running off to complain until they've tried their best to deal with the situation in other ways
On personal responsibility, though, this is getting very close to saying that dressing provocatively invites rape. Yes, if you wear skimpy clothes and parade around downtown in the middle of the night you're unnecessarily putting yourself in harm's way; just like flirting with the hot guys in the office gives some guys the impression that you enjoy sexual banter/touching/groping. BUT that still doesn't give any guy the right to touch/grope/flirt with you if you don't want him to AND have told him so -- just like it doesn't give any guy the right to rape you just because you're being stupid about your own safety.
UP: Come on! That is way, way out of line.
I think a woman can walk down the street naked except for stilettos and fishnets and no one, NO ONE, should be excused for raping her.
All I am saying is know when you are giving off mixed messages and understand why someone might misunderstand what you find tolerable. That is not the same as saying if you dress sexy, you deserve to be raped.
And I say this as someone with a fair bit of personal knowledge on this front that I won't get into here.
Sheesh.
Sorry Jacy, I didn't mean to suggest that YOU were suggesting anything of the sort. I'm only saying that yes, a woman has personal responsiblity for certain consequences of her actions, but she is not responsible for another person's actions.
That is very true. If some pervert comes after her anyway, even though she's made her feelings known, hang 'em high!
There is a bit of misrepresentation going on here. Most (MOST) reports to HR regarding sexual harassment are not when the ugly fat guy down the hall says "you're gorgeous". Representing sexual harassment complaints that way is unfair. If someone is intentionally commenting on someone's body or interacting with them in a way that is inappropriate on work grounds and can't read social cues to understand that it is unwanted, they fully deserve to be reported to HR personnel, especially if it is a practice that they engage in with many females at work.
It isn't exactly easy for Susy Secretary to tell ugly fat guy down the hell to fuck off. Especially if he's a supervisor or someone with authority. It is after all an expression of power to be able to comment on someone's appearance at work and think you have the license to be unprofessional in that way. (And I use "Susy Secretary" intentionally, because Vicki Vice President likely doesn't have to deal with unwelcome sexual comments because of her position of power.)
If a woman is attracted to someone at work and flirts with him (short of something inappropriate on work grounds), this is irrelevant to the creepy ugly fat guy who wants attention. It isn't "unfair", it isn't "unjust", it isn't "hypocritical." Women get to decide who they are friendly with, on and off work premises. Anywhere. A woman's body doesn't become a free for all, for every unattractive older sexless loser at work if she flirts with an attractive loser at work.
And I must repeat my initial post:
"Just because you appreciate comments that assuage your self esteem doesn't mean that everyone should. Unwelcome advances and comments are unwelcome."
"Women get to decide who they are friendly with, on and off work premises. Anywhere. A woman's body doesn't become a free for all, for every unattractive older sexless loser at work if she flirts with an attractive loser at work."
Yes, women do get to decide but that doesn't give them a guarantee that they will never be approached by anyone they don't want to be friendly with or flirt with. Getting to decide is different from living in a protective bubble.
So women still need to learn how to say no. And then when "no" doesn't work, they can take it up the chain-of-command.
Susy Secretary is an adult not a quivering mass of jelly or some specimen of Victorian womanhood in need of never-ending protection.
And there's a difference between one's body becoming a free-for-all and learning to accept a compliment or deflect an inappropriate remark.
While there may have been some strawman elements in some of the examples given, you seem to live in a world that's way more black and white than the one I see.
And bringing this round to this week's topic. This is one of the reasons why I disliked that movie waitress. Here's the Keri Russell character who can tell just about everyone where to get off except her brutish husband. Huh?
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