I am Tearfree and I recently got into a whole lot of trouble with the Mummy bloggers at Her Bad Mother http://badladies.blogspot.com/2006/04/back-to-basics.html for refusing to drink their Koolaid and calling them a bunch of disempowered victim wannabes with a weird, incongruous you-go-girl streak. They replied that I was a rude insensitive asswipe who had no business doubting their victim stories and hijacking one of their favourite blogs.
About the hijacking, they had a point. So here I am at my brand new blog, Reject the Koolaid, where those of us who want can continue the discussion without being accused of hijacking.
Today’s topic of discussion is:
Am I the only one who doubts this story of the Koolaid Mom who maintains that she worked at a company where a woman was told that she should have had an abortion and “that (the) same company laid off or demoted a half a dozen womEn because they decided to have children.”
And our follow-up question:
Is there really a nice sweet Koolaidish way to tell someone you think they’re full of shit?
Tearfree is not only very skeptical about this story because it’s just too bad to be true, but she is also curious about the appropriate Koolaid Mom way of telling a fellow Koolaid Mom you don’t believe her reality? Or as a Koolaid Mom, do you just ignore the fact that another Koolaid Mom is spouting nonsense because it’s really, really mean and hurtful to challenge someone and you never, ever, ever want to hurt another Koolaid Mom’s feelings?
And – oh yeah – is it possible, or even desirable, to get through life without hurt feelings?
14 comments:
OK, great! Exactly the thing to do when there's an issue that you want to explore on your own terms - start a blog!
First of all, you're right - one can't go through life expecting to avoid hurt feelings (being the hurter or the hurtee.) But, one wants to avoid these, doesn't one?
So, to my second point: I don't know what the right way is question someone's story if you don't buy it. Avoiding the term 'bullshit' is a start. All that I do know is that you need to be sensitive, and, most important, open to dialogue. Don't just say, 'sorry, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit' (or, "don't buy it") when the person that you're challenging follows up. We all need to be reflective about our biases and blindspots - but that goes to both sides. Why are *you* questioning the story? What is about the story that provokes?
I think that a good principle of dialogue in the blogosphere is to always assume first that the author of a story has given some thought to their story and considered many sides. If they obviously haven't, well, then, make your choices. Know that if you hurt someone's feelings, they may lash out.
Sensitivity, and tolerance, and open-mindedness.
I hope that no-one comes over here just to flame you. I respect that you opened your own forum to continue this discussion. I'll probably post about this issue myself - questioning each other, and questioning our own assumptions, especially about discrimination and the like, because I think that there are some important general points here - and when I do I'll probably link here. But I hope that that furthers friendly and open dialogue, and not shouting matches.
Welcome to the blogosphere.
the person who was told "that they made the wrong" decision was me. you want to call someone a bullshitter? shitty things happen to good good people. and by the way, i ignored the comment, i did have the kid and i resigned from the company and moved on to be the biggest big wig of them all. and i have to say. i was the only pregnant person who WAS NOT fired (let go) from their job when they came back from Mat Leave. I have worked at 3 different companies who have done this to mothers. and yeah...they pay you out when it happens. and no you can't complain or you get blacklisted from any other potential jobs. - i think blogs are stupid. but when this was brought to my attention. i saw fire and i think you need to get out of your land of make believe. good luck to you.
First of all bad mother, let me say that if there's just one thing I can agree with the Koolaid Moms about, it is that you are an awesome writer. Or maybe two things -- very cute kid.
But my posts were never really meant to be about you so much as they were about the Koolaid cult.
I can see upon rereading my infamous unreliable narrator post why it might have been taken that way, but really that was never the goal.
And in all fairness I did tell you what made me wonder -- not disbelieve, not hold up as fraudulent -- your first reply to me. It was calling the guy an asswipe, whch seemed to indicate a pre-Mummyhood history of bad feelings. And it was also that you were mad at your shrink for actually having the audacity to, gasp, follow up with you. (If there was irony there, it went right over my head).
In any case, my real focus was the urban mythiness of your commenters.
Now, no doubt, others will tell me that it wasn't what I said but how I said it. But, you know what, most of the time when people say that, it is WHAT you said that pisses them off, because if they agree dwith WHAT you said, they wouldn't care a bit HOW you said it. Witness how all your posters talked to me. None of the Koolaid drinkers got the slightest bit mad at other Koolaid drinkers for HOW they said it because they all agreed about WHAT was being said.
Now, I try never to be hurtful for the sake of being hurtful to anyone, but, I guess I figure if you decide to put it all out there on a blog, you're ready for a certain amount of give and take. And, in this forum, for me -- unlike in my real life -- promoting discussion takes priority over avoiding hurtfulness.
And now here's a question that I didn't think it was appropriate to put to you at your blog because it's your blog, but wasn't it just a little creepy how your Koolaid posters went all Lord of the Flies?
What an honor to be the subject of your founding post. Thanks!
So you think I'm constipated? Maybe it would be considered sweet to send me some laxatives.
I had to call my amazing friend who this happened to share your idiocy.
By the way, I love that you refer to yourself as a third person. Very funny!
Ok, Something Blue, this is my blog and my rules. (Tearfree's blog, Tearfree's rules)
No potty mouth stuff here. No asswipe. No constipation. No laxatives. If you're going to go all anal fixation, please back to your own blog.
Hahaha. I think someone bit off more than she could chew.
While I agree that mommy bloggers can be somewhat odd and creepy, this website and the ensuing "watch me backtrack like crazy!" comment you made on your Founding Post is a testament to the fact that you really have nothing in particular to say. I suggest you find a real beef first, start a blog that pretends to be a bastion of no-nonsense backlash later.
G'day.
Saeed,
Where were you when I needed you over at HBM, dude?
You let me take the heat all by myself when you agee that Mummy bloggers can be "odd and creepy?"
What, were you scared of them or something?
as someone who has made a career out of debate and critique, I have to take issue with the idea that this was just because you disagreed with Bad Lady.
This is not about disagreement (in fact, I just disagreed with one of my fave bloggers about an issue, and it was engaged in a respectful and productive way). the issue here is that of tone and respect.
there was nothing engaging about your comments, in fact they just served to inflame and not encourage conversation. in a nutshell, your disagreement just came across as direct personal insult. and so us "koolaid moms" defended B.L. from that attack.
you got personal fast. so we got defensive. fast.
i am all for debate, and i see such engagement emerging fruitfully, contentiously, and productively across the internet.
this was not about debating an issue, which can be done tactfully and responsibly through the sharing of personal perspectives and experiences, this was about closing off discussion with a "you guys all need to shut up because you're idiots."
not cool.
that said, after this has all died down, I for one am willing to see if you have the props to share in this manner, and show us a bit ore about you in this hear blog.
i'll be back with an open mind--at least once.
"there was nothing engaging about your comments"
Well, they seem to have been engaging enough to get you here
"the issue here is that of tone and respect"
Given what went down in the comments, I think the issue had very little to do with tone and respect.
As I point out above, if the Koolaid quaffers were so concerned with tone and respect, they'd exercise a bit of of the latter themselves.
What went down is that a whole bunch of the girls went whacko and some others got the vapours. and, all in all, it was not a pretty sight
I'm trying to create a better atmosphere here. And you're welcome back
Oh I'm sorry, did I offend you?
Did I not read that you think I'm full of shit?
Do you think throwing insults at someone that you don't know is a better atmosphere?
I only offered some first hand knowledge of unfair treatment of working mothers to defend my previous comment on 2badladies site. Seriously what would I gain by making this story up? I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy for my friend or myself.
The term Koolaid Mom is offensive and I don't appreciate being called a liar spouting nonsense.
"calling them a bunch of disempowered victim wannabes with a weird, incongruous you-go-girl streak"
Hmm... that is probably why you got yourself in a little hot water over at Her Bad Mother. Call people names and they don't want to play with you....call their friends names and they will defend them. What did you expect was going to happen?
I think it is wonderful to share opinions on a topic one posts. I think it is much more interesting to read differing opinions when the debate is respectful. Healthy debate is a good thing. I also think that it is true that we all have different views of reality, whether another sees them as true or not.I get your point on that...I really do.
I don't think it is helpful to make an assumption that someone is a liar or that you make a determination that something they have written is a falsehood. Particularly if you have no proof of this said fact.It's just your opinion, right? Bad things do happen in workplaces that are unfair and discriminatory. It DOES happen. Why would any of the stories you are referring to be so unbelievable to you? Just curious why you would assume that.That is another reason you were attacked.
Interesting blog, though.
Tearfree/ Reject the Koolaid:
Thank you.
There are a lot of testy people online, aren't there?
These people say they blog under the guise of protecting their friends, or facilitating debate or discussion, etc.
Really, I don't find the mommy bloggers open-minded at all. But they do seem cultish. They seem incredibly small-minded, and infantile.
On guard.
Why don’t I believe that “that (the) same company laid off or demoted a half a dozen womEn because they decided to have children?”
Ok, let’s start at the beginning: the poster’s profile says she works at a media company in a big city. So we’re not talking Charlize Theron in North Country here.
Media people are usually pretty savvy about the benefits of publicity, the role of Human Rights Commissions and lawyers’ letters.
And like our poster here, they usually see themselves as feminists and aren’t shy about making their point of view known. I mean, look at that last post. She came to my blog and and announced: “The term Koolaid Mom is offensive.”
And we’re supposed to believe that this self-described high performer and her self-described bigwig friend, who has also posted on this blog, just stood by and let all this happen. Sorry I’m not buying it.
As for being insulted, I’m totally fine with it. Like you said, I did indeed ask for it. I just prefer a better level of insults than asswipe. I’m more a barbed wit type than an anal insulter.
And I do think that you’ve forfeited the right to lecture people on making nice if you’re going to hang out with posters who say things like: I”s it just me or is it everytime i now see 'tearfree' on the roll call i just feel like spitting or brushing my teeth or rubbing dry ice on my body or something. something to get rid of the ickiness. ick. ew. spit spit brush rub. i can't even look at j&j 'tearfree' products without getting the willies. ick. ew. spit spit brush rub."
And to Anonymous, thanks, much appreciated.
In response to your response to my response (down the rabbit hole we go...)
- I called him an asswipe because I was hurt about what happened. I was forwarded the e-mail in which he explained why I shouldn't receive further contracts, and it was not friendly (it was not, however, unflattering; he made no attempt to argue that I wasn't talented or popular - quite the opposite - only that *he* wasn't going to be doing me any more favours.) So, yeah, I called him a name. I'm childish that way.
- the 'trip' about my shrink was, perhaps, not fully drawn out, but, hey, I'm already wordy. I was happy that she followed up regularly, but found all of the euphemism and delicate language frustrating when I was trying to figure out just how mucked up my head was. 'Intrusive thoughts?' Just speak plainly: you want to hurt yourself or your baby or your husband or your shrink or you want to run far far away. Which of these is normal, and which not? But I never had the cojones - or the emotional energy - to challenge her.
- Blog and commentary meanness. I don't like meanness under any any circumstances, which is perhaps contradictory, since I lashed out with a Bad Name at someone I was mad at. (Someone at whom I was mad? Gah.) I get uncomfortable when it gets excessive, or is reduced to the virtual equivalent of 'nyah nyah nyah.' Which is why I keep pushing the civility issue (and the link to my rant about it).
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